Elizabeth Day is the host of the hugely popular How To Fail podcast. Launched in 2018, it celebrates the things in life that haven’t gone quite as you thought they might, and what we might learn from – to put it bluntly – buggering things up.
The author and journalist is about to embark on a nationwide tour and arrives at The Lowry the end of this month. She’ll be welcoming onto the stage with her Boltonian comedy icon Sophie Willan, writer and star of hit BBC series Alma’s Not Normal. It’ll be a riot.
Manchester’s Finest: Hi Elizabeth! We’re so excited to have you in Manchester this month – are you looking forward to bringing the live show to The Lowry?
Elizabeth Day: I’m so excited to come back. I had a date at The Lowry in 2019 when I had just written my book How To Fail and it was so fantastic, I love that theatre. I love the entire place, the people and I love the fact you can walk across the water to some amazing cocktail bars!
MF: The Lowry is a real treasure up here, and we can’t wait for you to bring comedian, writer and all-round local legend Sophie Willan to the stage. Do you have a say in who you get on the podcast and for the live tour?
ED: I’m so lucky now that I do get a lot of choice on all guests, I didn’t when it first launched. I’m more surprised than anyone that we are where we are now – I’m so grateful for it. We have all sorts of people pitching to be on the podcast – and I wish I could say yes to them all, although not the men who constantly email me saying ‘Hi, my name is Kevin, I do Park Run, I think I’d have a lot to offer your listeners’.
MF: Oh there’s always a Kevin! How did you settle on Sophie for the live show? We loved Alma’s Not Normal…
ED: I’m completely obsessed with her, and she stands for so much of what How To Fail is about. She is someone who has taken some really big challenges on in her life and turned them into art to help others. That, to me, is just the perfect guest, because that’s what How To Fail is all about.
The podcast is not denying the challenges of life, not denying the fact that failure exists and is really difficult to deal with sometimes, but understanding that if we learn how to deal with it, and if we respond in a way that feels true to us, then actually we end up being successes by according to our own metrics. We end up being more authentic versions of who we are, because failure strips away your ego.
I think in Sophie’s work, especially Alma’s Not Normal, you really see that authenticity. And I just can’t wait to speak to someone who obviously, yes, takes it for granted that she’s super funny and super smart, but clearly someone who’s really thought about this and how it manifests in her own life. The fact that she’s a northerner as well is just even better – it was really nice for every one of my guests to have some kind of local link to the dates that I’m doing.
MF: You’re right, it’s so rare that we’re encouraged to celebrate failure and see it as a redirection, rather than a rejection of some kind. How did you settle on the theme of the podcast?
ED: I was deliberate in my decision to call it How To Fail and I know some people are probably still put off by that. But, it’s because, as James Joyce said, ‘mistakes are the portals of self discovery’. I love the power that comes from making something accessible, or as Sophie does, funny, and being able to convey a truth to the audience and makes them feel seen, less alone, and makes them feel they can grow from it.
MF: That’s very true. As women, do you think it’s harder for us to deal with failure?
ED: Well I can’t answer for all women, but I can from what I have learned. The first season I ever did How To Fail, when it was a totally new concept, most of the women that I approached said ‘I failed so many times, I can’t whittle it down to just three.’ But most of the straight white men I approached said, I don’t think I have failed.
One guest, actually, when I interviewed them, they absolutely had failed, and they were really willing to talk about it, but they weren’t necessarily willing to label it as a failure. And I think there are two things going on there. One is that if you’re born into a world made in your image, then you’re born privileged, and you’re less likely to think of an obstacle as a failure. You see it rather as something that you can overcome.
I think with women, if you are a cis, straight woman of a certain age, then you would probably be raised in a culture that expects you to please other people. Talking from my personal experience, I was definitely taught to place that above any of my own needs and desires.
MF: Are there any decisions your younger self would be surprised to see you have made as an adult?
ED: What an amazing question. There’s many deep answers to this, but the most superficial one is she would think ‘God, you do so much exercise!’ It is so good for my mental and physical health, I’ve got very into weight training, spin and yoga. She would have been amazed and quite impressed. When I grew up, exercise wasn’t cool – that culture has changed massively.
On a deeper level, she would be really shocked I got divorced, and I was the one who left the marriage, which was really dysfunctional, but I’m glad I did it for the both of us. I can only speak from my perspective, but I never thought I would be divorced in my mid 30s. She’d also be surprised I don’t have children, but what I would say to her is that I do have a child – it’s you.
MF: What do you mean there?
ED: I realised as I grew older that a large part of what I need to do – not to get too much like therapy here – was to heal my inner child, as cliche as that sounds. I would say to her, life is so much better than I could ever have anticipated. Those moments where I’ve had to let go of dreams, or I’ve encountered a really difficult curve ball that has taken me in a totally different direction, it has always been so much better and so much more fulfilling.
MF: That is so comforting to hear and very inspiring.
ED: I have a belief that the universe unfolds as it should, and I don’t have all the answers, and I don’t know why terrible things happen, but they do happen, and difficult things happen to all of us. And so really, I’m all about saying, don’t live in fear of the difficult thing, don’t live in fear of failure. Because for me, the risk is not the failure. The risk is not taking the adventure because you’re scared, because failure connects us all.
MF: Have any stories of failure from guests on the podcast ever informed your own decision making?
ED: Definitely, there’s a couple, actually. There are two guests that come to mind right now that informed my psychology, and I have stopped myself because of what these guests taught me. They are Mo Gawdat and Matthew Syed.
Mo Gawdat is an incredible man who I have had on the podcast three times now. He is someone who used to work for Google, his life went through a paradigm shift, and he decided to devote his life to making people happy.
He taught me a technique for interrupting anxiety and anxious thoughts, which is to name your brain. He calls his anxious brain Becky, after the girl at his school who was constantly pointing out all the negatives and things that would go wrong. What that does is it automatically puts a distance between who you are and what your brain is telling you.
Mo stopped himself in the street, and said ‘Becky, where is your objective evidence for that assertion? Because if you don’t have objective evidence, I’d really love it if you could take away that negative thought and replace it with a positive one.’ In that way, you can actually train your brain to be more content, because ultimately it is looking out for you.
Matthew (Syed) said that one of his failures was a failure to become the Olympic table tennis champion. He went to the Olympics, and in his words, he choked. He totally choked in front of this massive audience, and he felt absolutely terrible and totally humiliated. And he said, he thought that even now that one of the worst things has happened, ‘I know my parents still love me’.
It doesn’t have to be your parents, it could be someone in your life who loves you, or it could be you. It’s a wonderful way of putting things into perspective – no matter how bad something gets, this person still loves me because they don’t love me for my achievements.
MF: It’s amazing just how many guests you’ve welcome to the podcast over the last 7 years or so. Can you pick a favourite?
ED: Mo Gawdat is definitely up there, because it really did change my life. [Made In Chelsea’s] Jamie Liang actually, who came on quite an early season. The reason I chose that episode is because I’m a huge reality TV fan, and part of the reason I love reality TV is because the cast have to get used to talking about their emotions, so I found that they make amazing podcast guests.
Jamie was one of those – he spoke about one of his failures was the he hadn’t had a lasting relationship at 30 years old. We became friends after that podcast, and he’s a very special person to me now. It’s just amazing to see what he’s done in podcasting subsequently, but it’s also amazing to see that he is now married and in love with Sophie [Habboo].
It’s just such a good example of someone who felt the failure so keenly, and then with the self awareness of that, made different decisions and now has this happy, long term relationship.
Elizabeth Day arrives in Salford on 30 March for How To Fail Live with Elizabeth Day at The Lowry.
Read more:
Ornella’s comes to Freight Island
The best BYOB in Manchester
Manchester’s best Korean food
